I have only had a chance to glance over it, and it looks to be very
interesting - personally I would be interested in shifting production to
more alk and diesel - and much less gasoline.

One thing that caught my eye, that has me concerned, is in the summery where
is says:

"Carbon steel turnings packed with a void volume from 88 to 90 pct. were
satisfactory catalyst, but steel catalyst with greater void volume, either
turnings or steel wool, were not as active."

Would it not be a problem in obtaining that void volume - IOW, how do you
know you have obtained a given void volume?

Greg H.

----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry freedomev" <freedomev@yahoo.com>
To: <wastewatts@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 20:43
Subject: [wastewatts] FT Process, turning biomass into gasoline, ect.

>
>
> Hi All,
> I finally found a good paper on F/T process with instructions
> in english on how to make the catalyst and an interesting way to do the
> converter to keep temps even.
> With a biomass syn-gas generator feeding into this out comes
> mostly gasoline, diesel, propane, butane, ect. With this, more study and
> being handy, one could make their own set up.
> I was right that rust in the form of steel wool would work
> though turnings worked better. Both need treatments to work well but not
> hard to do. The catalyst was the last thing needed to make this work.
> About 1 mb.
>
> Enjoy,
> Jerry Dycus
>
> http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/Bureau_of_Mines/ri/ri_5871/ri_5871.pdf
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (8)

How to determine void volume? Weight per cubic foot would be my method.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg and April
To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [wastewatts] FT Process, turning biomass into gasoline, ect.

I have only had a chance to glance over it, and it looks to be very
interesting - personally I would be interested in shifting production to
more alk and diesel - and much less gasoline.

One thing that caught my eye, that has me concerned, is in the summery where
is says:

"Carbon steel turnings packed with a void volume from 88 to 90 pct. were
satisfactory catalyst, but steel catalyst with greater void volume, either
turnings or steel wool, were not as active."

Would it not be a problem in obtaining that void volume - IOW, how do you
know you have obtained a given void volume?

Greg H.

----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry freedomev" <freedomev@yahoo.com>
To: <wastewatts@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 20:43
Subject: [wastewatts] FT Process, turning biomass into gasoline, ect.

>
>
> Hi All,
> I finally found a good paper on F/T process with instructions
> in english on how to make the catalyst and an interesting way to do the
> converter to keep temps even.
> With a biomass syn-gas generator feeding into this out comes
> mostly gasoline, diesel, propane, butane, ect. With this, more study and
> being handy, one could make their own set up.
> I was right that rust in the form of steel wool would work
> though turnings worked better. Both need treatments to work well but not
> hard to do. The catalyst was the last thing needed to make this work.
> About 1 mb.
>
> Enjoy,
> Jerry Dycus
>
> http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/Bureau_of_Mines/ri/ri_5871/ri_5871.pdf
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (8)

--- On Mon, 8/4/08, Ron & Mary Ohler <r-m-ohler@triton.net> wrote:

> From: Ron & Mary Ohler <r-m-ohler@triton.net>
> Subject: Re: [wastewatts] FT Process, turning biomass into gasoline, ect.
> To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 6:35 PM
> How to determine void volume? Weight per cubic foot would be
> my method.
> Ron
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Greg and April
> To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 11:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [wastewatts] FT Process, turning biomass
> into gasoline, ect.
>
>
> I have only had a chance to glance over it, and it looks
> to be very
> interesting - personally I would be interested in
> shifting production to
> more alk and diesel - and much less gasoline.
>
> One thing that caught my eye, that has me concerned, is
> in the summery where
> is says:
>
> "Carbon steel turnings packed with a void volume
> from 88 to 90 pct. were
> satisfactory catalyst, but steel catalyst with greater
> void volume, either
> turnings or steel wool, were not as active."
>
> Would it not be a problem in obtaining that void volume -
> IOW, how do you
> know you have obtained a given void volume?
>
> Greg H.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jerry freedomev"
> <freedomev@yahoo.com>
> To: <wastewatts@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 20:43
> Subject: [wastewatts] FT Process, turning biomass into
> gasoline, ect.
>
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
> > I finally found a good paper on F/T process with
> instructions
> > in english on how to make the catalyst and an
> interesting way to do the
> > converter to keep temps even.
> > With a biomass syn-gas generator feeding into this
> out comes
> > mostly gasoline, diesel, propane, butane, ect. With
> this, more study and
> > being handy, one could make their own set up.
> > I was right that rust in the form of steel wool
> would work
> > though turnings worked better. Both need treatments
> to work well but not
> > hard to do. The catalyst was the last thing needed
> to make this work.
> > About 1 mb.
> >
> > Enjoy,
> > Jerry Dycus
> >
> >
> http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/Bureau_of_Mines/ri/ri_5871/ri_5871.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (8)

What about the hard water coating the inside of all the tankless heat
exchanger? Seems to me that you would just be shifting the same problem
to the new heating source. Much better to tackle the treatment of the
hard water problem first.

Will, the Tink
N45°29'05, W122°19.20

-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Andrews <nickjandrews@gmail.com>
Reply-To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:59:03 -0600

Well, around here the water is so hard that they will be entirely
encased in
solid calcium half the time. I am looking to go with solar preheat or
tankless to cut down on power usage.

On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 10:10 AM, BC <calderhead@comcast.net> wrote:

> I too have an SCR 2 from Titan. In fact I have two of them. I think
your
> comments on shower use depend alot on the faucet handle. I'm not
doubting
> your experience, it's just that I wish I had a single faucet handle
for hot
> and a single one for cold. I've used Bosch tankless as well and noted
> similar experience getting the flow and temp I want. It's not like a
tanked
> heater.
>
> In any case, why stop using a water heater just because the elements
went
> out? I'm curious as eventually I'll have to replace my elements too.
> They're not that hard to get to.
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com <wastewatts%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
> wastewatts@yahoogroups.com <wastewatts%40yahoogroups.com>]On
> Behalf Of Ron & Mary Ohler
> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 11:39 PM
> To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com <wastewatts%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?
>
> Hi,
> Oh, we used a 11.8 KW Niagara Titan SCR 2 for about 3 - 3 1/2 years to
> supply all of the hot water needs for our 1880's 2 story 1400 sq/ft
home.
> There are 3 of us here. 2 mid/late 40's adults and a 10 year old
child. We
> have an automatic clothes washer, 2 baths (1 up and 1 downstairs), 2
> kitchens( I made it a duplex) but no dishwasher. We would still be
using
> the
> Titan had it not burned out both heating elements. It was just large
enough
> to take a shower with using a 2.5 gpm maximum shower head. Note, we
are
> only
> supplied with about 30 -32 psi water pressure so the flow rate is
certainly
> a bit less than rated. In use - for a shower - the water had to be
turned
> on
> full hot to warm up the piping and then some cold water was blended in
to
> make comfortable.
> Ron
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Plotsker
> To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com <wastewatts%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 8:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?
>
> what methods of heating are used on these tankless water heaters that
make
> sense economically?
> i have hho and electric. no natural gas. yet...
> also do you get one per bathroom or can you share one between 2
adjacent
> bathrooms or do you have a whole house unit?
> thanks
> michael
>
> On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 6:08 PM, Steve Spence
>
> <sspence@green-trust.org <sspence%40green-trust.org>>wrote:
>
> > I feel tankless makes sense. I have the Rinnai.
> >
> > Steve Spence
> > http://www.green-trust.org
> >
> > Sign up for our newsletter at
> > http://www.green-trust.org/newsletter/
> >
> >
> > heart4u311@aol.com <heart4u311%40aol.com> <heart4u311%40aol.com>
wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi
> > > Where I live (2 family home) there are 2 apt, each with separate
30
> > gallon
> > > gas water heater per each apt,
> > > to use for hot water / hot water panels for heat.
> > >
> > > Still bills are huge, and going to grow more and more.
> > > Is it worth it to change those hot water tanks that have to be
kept
> not
> > all
> > > year around
> > > for tankless water heater ?
> > > anyone knows?
> > > And if switching to tankless make sense, which brand to buy?
> > > thanks
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up
for
> > > FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
> > > (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020
> > > <http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020>)
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

--
Nick A

"You know what I wish? I wish that all the scum of the world had but a
single throat, and I had my hands about it..." Rorschach, 1975

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical
Review
of Pennsylvania, 1759

"Be polite. Be professional. But be prepared to kill everyone you meet."
Anonymous

"I believe that if you can't find something nice to say about somebody,
then
you must be talking about Hillary Clinton." Jeff Foxworthy
snip

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (31)

Hard water is certainly an issue. I usually recommended acid cleaning the heat exchanger once a year on the Paloma units. Removing the tubes that connected the heat exchanger to the burner control would allow vinyl tubing to be placed on the exchanger's tube ends. Plastic hose to garden hose adapters allowed using a cheap drill operated pump to be used to pump acid through the heat exchanger from a 5 gallon bucket with about 1 gallon of acid in it. If the heater was mounted low enough on the wall or the heat exchanger was removed - 2 buckets could be used to siphon the acid back and forth through the heat exchanger. The drill pump method was worth the extra cost as it was much faster and if care was used to not run the drill motor too fast - I feel it is less likely to spill. With clear vinyl tubing it was easy to see when the lime was all removed as the down stream tube would no longer show foam bubbles in it.
I got to where I used a battery operated drill motor and could clean a Paloma out in less than 1/2 hour. Eventually the drill pumps give out as most just have a carbon steel shaft which rusts and pits at the seal or the impellor goes bad - some elastomers or even plastic housings are not compatible with muriatic acid.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: William Dysinger
To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?

What about the hard water coating the inside of all the tankless heat
exchanger? Seems to me that you would just be shifting the same problem
to the new heating source. Much better to tackle the treatment of the
hard water problem first.

Will, the Tink
N45°29'05, W122°19.20

-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Andrews <nickjandrews@gmail.com>
Reply-To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:59:03 -0600

Well, around here the water is so hard that they will be entirely
encased in
solid calcium half the time. I am looking to go with solar preheat or
tankless to cut down on power usage.

On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 10:10 AM, BC <calderhead@comcast.net> wrote:

> I too have an SCR 2 from Titan. In fact I have two of them. I think
your
> comments on shower use depend alot on the faucet handle. I'm not
doubting
> your experience, it's just that I wish I had a single faucet handle
for hot
> and a single one for cold. I've used Bosch tankless as well and noted
> similar experience getting the flow and temp I want. It's not like a
tanked
> heater.
>
> In any case, why stop using a water heater just because the elements
went
> out? I'm curious as eventually I'll have to replace my elements too.
> They're not that hard to get to.
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com <wastewatts%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
> wastewatts@yahoogroups.com <wastewatts%40yahoogroups.com>]On
> Behalf Of Ron & Mary Ohler
> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 11:39 PM
> To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com <wastewatts%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?
>
> Hi,
> Oh, we used a 11.8 KW Niagara Titan SCR 2 for about 3 - 3 1/2 years to
> supply all of the hot water needs for our 1880's 2 story 1400 sq/ft
home.
> There are 3 of us here. 2 mid/late 40's adults and a 10 year old
child. We
> have an automatic clothes washer, 2 baths (1 up and 1 downstairs), 2
> kitchens( I made it a duplex) but no dishwasher. We would still be
using
> the
> Titan had it not burned out both heating elements. It was just large
enough
> to take a shower with using a 2.5 gpm maximum shower head. Note, we
are
> only
> supplied with about 30 -32 psi water pressure so the flow rate is
certainly
> a bit less than rated. In use - for a shower - the water had to be
turned
> on
> full hot to warm up the piping and then some cold water was blended in
to
> make comfortable.
> Ron
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Plotsker
> To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com <wastewatts%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 8:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?
>
> what methods of heating are used on these tankless water heaters that
make
> sense economically?
> i have hho and electric. no natural gas. yet...
> also do you get one per bathroom or can you share one between 2
adjacent
> bathrooms or do you have a whole house unit?
> thanks
> michael
>
> On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 6:08 PM, Steve Spence
>
> <sspence@green-trust.org <sspence%40green-trust.org>>wrote:
>
> > I feel tankless makes sense. I have the Rinnai.
> >
> > Steve Spence
> > http://www.green-trust.org
> >
> > Sign up for our newsletter at
> > http://www.green-trust.org/newsletter/
> >
> >
> > heart4u311@aol.com <heart4u311%40aol.com> <heart4u311%40aol.com>
wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi
> > > Where I live (2 family home) there are 2 apt, each with separate
30
> > gallon
> > > gas water heater per each apt,
> > > to use for hot water / hot water panels for heat.
> > >
> > > Still bills are huge, and going to grow more and more.
> > > Is it worth it to change those hot water tanks that have to be
kept
> not
> > all
> > > year around
> > > for tankless water heater ?
> > > anyone knows?
> > > And if switching to tankless make sense, which brand to buy?
> > > thanks
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up
for
> > > FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
> > > (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020
> > > <http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020>)
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

--
Nick A

"You know what I wish? I wish that all the scum of the world had but a
single throat, and I had my hands about it..." Rorschach, 1975

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical
Review
of Pennsylvania, 1759

"Be polite. Be professional. But be prepared to kill everyone you meet."
Anonymous

"I believe that if you can't find something nice to say about somebody,
then
you must be talking about Hillary Clinton." Jeff Foxworthy
snip

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (31)

You could use one of those Harbor Freight submersible fountain pumps.
They have magnetic-driven impeller and may hold up longer but the
impeller does run on a steel shaft. Might work best to lube the shaft
with Vaseline or whatever to keep the acid to a minimum.

Will, the Tink
N45°29'05, W122°19.20

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron & Mary Ohler <r-m-ohler@triton.net>
Reply-To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 18:56:14 -0400

Hard water is certainly an issue. I usually recommended acid cleaning
the heat exchanger once a year on the Paloma units. Removing the tubes
that connected the heat exchanger to the burner control would allow
vinyl tubing to be placed on the exchanger's tube ends. Plastic hose to
garden hose adapters allowed using a cheap drill operated pump to be
used to pump acid through the heat exchanger from a 5 gallon bucket with
about 1 gallon of acid in it. If the heater was mounted low enough on
the wall or the heat exchanger was removed - 2 buckets could be used to
siphon the acid back and forth through the heat exchanger. The drill
pump method was worth the extra cost as it was much faster and if care
was used to not run the drill motor too fast - I feel it is less likely
to spill. With clear vinyl tubing it was easy to see when the lime was
all removed as the down stream tube would no longer show foam bubbles in
it.
I got to where I used a battery operated drill motor and could clean a
Paloma out in less than 1/2 hour. Eventually the drill pumps give out as
most just have a carbon steel shaft which rusts and pits at the seal or
the impellor goes bad - some elastomers or even plastic housings are not
compatible with muriatic acid.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: William Dysinger
To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?

What about the hard water coating the inside of all the tankless heat
exchanger? Seems to me that you would just be shifting the same problem
to the new heating source. Much better to tackle the treatment of the
hard water problem first.

Will, the Tink
N45°29'05, W122°19.20

-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Andrews <nickjandrews@gmail.com>
Reply-To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:59:03 -0600

Well, around here the water is so hard that they will be entirely
encased in
solid calcium half the time. I am looking to go with solar preheat or
tankless to cut down on power usage.

On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 10:10 AM, BC <calderhead@comcast.net> wrote:

> I too have an SCR 2 from Titan. In fact I have two of them. I think
your
> comments on shower use depend alot on the faucet handle. I'm not
doubting
> your experience, it's just that I wish I had a single faucet handle
for hot
> and a single one for cold. I've used Bosch tankless as well and noted
> similar experience getting the flow and temp I want. It's not like a
tanked
> heater.
>
> In any case, why stop using a water heater just because the elements
went
> out? I'm curious as eventually I'll have to replace my elements too.
> They're not that hard to get to.
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com <wastewatts%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
> wastewatts@yahoogroups.com <wastewatts%40yahoogroups.com>]On
> Behalf Of Ron & Mary Ohler
> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 11:39 PM
> To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com <wastewatts%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?
>
> Hi,
> Oh, we used a 11.8 KW Niagara Titan SCR 2 for about 3 - 3 1/2 years to
> supply all of the hot water needs for our 1880's 2 story 1400 sq/ft
home.
> There are 3 of us here. 2 mid/late 40's adults and a 10 year old
child. We
> have an automatic clothes washer, 2 baths (1 up and 1 downstairs), 2
> kitchens( I made it a duplex) but no dishwasher. We would still be
using
> the
> Titan had it not burned out both heating elements. It was just large
enough
> to take a shower with using a 2.5 gpm maximum shower head. Note, we
are
> only
> supplied with about 30 -32 psi water pressure so the flow rate is
certainly
> a bit less than rated. In use - for a shower - the water had to be
turned
> on
> full hot to warm up the piping and then some cold water was blended in
to
> make comfortable.
> Ron
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Plotsker
> To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com <wastewatts%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 8:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?
>
> what methods of heating are used on these tankless water heaters that
make
> sense economically?
> i have hho and electric. no natural gas. yet...
> also do you get one per bathroom or can you share one between 2
adjacent
> bathrooms or do you have a whole house unit?
> thanks
> michael
>
> On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 6:08 PM, Steve Spence
>
> <sspence@green-trust.org <sspence%40green-trust.org>>wrote:
>
> > I feel tankless makes sense. I have the Rinnai.
> >
> > Steve Spence
> > http://www.green-trust.org
> >
> > Sign up for our newsletter at
> > http://www.green-trust.org/newsletter/
> >
> >
> > heart4u311@aol.com <heart4u311%40aol.com> <heart4u311%40aol.com>
wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi
> > > Where I live (2 family home) there are 2 apt, each with separate
30
> > gallon
> > > gas water heater per each apt,
> > > to use for hot water / hot water panels for heat.
> > >
> > > Still bills are huge, and going to grow more and more.
> > > Is it worth it to change those hot water tanks that have to be
kept
> not
> > all
> > > year around
> > > for tankless water heater ?
> > > anyone knows?
> > > And if switching to tankless make sense, which brand to buy?
> > > thanks
snip

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (31)

there is a pump where the fluid does not come in contac with any steel.
the rotor is 2 rollers that squish the soft plastic tubeing that is held in
a frame
that is shaped like the letter C
Louis in central BC

You could use one of those Harbor Freight submersible fountain pumps.
They have magnetic-driven impeller and may hold up longer but the
impeller does run on a steel shaft. Might work best to lube the shaft
with Vaseline or whatever to keep the acid to a minimum.

Will, the Tink
N45°29'05, W122°19.20

.............................

Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (31)

Wow,
Sounds like there are lessons to be learned in every single aspect of life.

Hi,
I'd bought the Niagara for my cottage. I'd gotten it on ebay fairly cheap. My tank type natural gas heater sprung a leak and here the Niagara sat at the house and the well still needed to be drilled at the cottage.
The Niagara was not purfect. It lacked a decent temperature to flow modulator. I can't tell you how many times my wife could be heard cussing in the shower for the first few months after it was installed. The electric heating elements take time to change temperature as does the water and pipes from the heater to the faucet/shower. It was best used for showering by turning the water control to full hot. Allowing the water and heater to come up to full temperature and then - and only then - adding enough cold to reduce the water temperature to the desired level - without changing the amount of hot water flow. Do it wrong and you are chasing the water temperature swings.
The heating elements failed without warning. The Paloma heaters I sold would slowly loose flow as they limed up. If not cleaned they would overheat the heat exchanger. This would seriously damage or destroy the heat exhanger. A pricey failure. I've repaired a few of them but many are beyond saving. When the heating elements failed on the Niagara, I didn't relize what had happened as they both shorted to ground and had similar resistance values. I thought that there had been a failure of the control and had rewired the heating elements to get them to actually work again -somewhat. I ended up ordering replacement thermal limiters from Niagara. While waiting for them to come I got the unit to work by by-passing them. This was a mistake. The Niagara unit only controls one side of the power supply line. By bypassing the thermal limiters I got it to work -kind of. What was happening was that the unit worked but since the heating elements were grounded they
would heat the water by shorting the uncontrolled side of the line to ground inside of heater. The water would then overheat very slowly. This resulted in finally bursting the heater's cold ware plastic supply line and flooding the basement and heater(the cover was off). Niagara had said to return the unit for servicing and expect it to cost about $50 to get it back in working condition. I haven't taken the time to put it back together and send it down to them.
Ron

----- Original Message -----
From: Aeon Long
To: wastewatts@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?

Ron,
Do you think it was more economical to have the 11.8 kw Niagara, vs. a tank type given the niagara lasted 3 1/2 years?

Hi,
Oh, we used a 11.8 KW Niagara Titan SCR 2 for about 3 - 3 1/2 years to supply all of the hot water needs for our 1880's 2 story 1400 sq/ft home. There are 3 of us here. 2 mid/late 40's adults and a 10 year old child. We have an automatic clothes washer, 2 baths (1 up and 1 downstairs), 2 kitchens( I made it a duplex) but no dishwasher. We would still be using the Titan had it not burned out both heating elements. It was just large enough to take a shower with using a 2.5 gpm maximum shower head. Note, we are only supplied with about 30 -32 psi water pressure so the flow rate is certainly a bit less than rated. In use - for a shower - the water had to be turned on full hot to warm up the piping and then some cold water was blended in to make comfortable.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Plotsker
To: wastewatts@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?

what methods of heating are used on these tankless water heaters that make
sense economically?
i have hho and electric. no natural gas. yet...
also do you get one per bathroom or can you share one between 2 adjacent
bathrooms or do you have a whole house unit?
thanks
michael

On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 6:08 PM, Steve Spence <sspence@green- trust.org>wrote:

> I feel tankless makes sense. I have the Rinnai.
>
> Steve Spence
> http://www.green- trust.org
>
> Sign up for our newsletter at
> http://www.green- trust.org/ newsletter/
>
>
> heart4u311@aol. com <heart4u311% 40aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi
> > Where I live (2 family home) there are 2 apt, each with separate 30
> gallon
> > gas water heater per each apt,
> > to use for hot water / hot water panels for heat.
> >
> > Still bills are huge, and going to grow more and more.
> > Is it worth it to change those hot water tanks that have to be kept not
> all
> > year around
> > for tankless water heater ?
> > anyone knows?
> > And if switching to tankless make sense, which brand to buy?
> > thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > ************ **Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
> > FanHouse Fantasy Football today.
> > (http://www.fanhouse .com/fantasyaffa ir?ncid=aolspr00 050000000020
> > <http://www.fanhouse .com/fantasyaffa ir?ncid=aolspr00 050000000020> )
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (31)

You could use Brownpolymer its a grease when wiped on will leave a film immune to acid or most solvents but don't get any on where you want water to touch it repels it
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wastewatts@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of William Dysinger
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 2:35 AM
To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?

You could use one of those Harbor Freight submersible fountain pumps.
They have magnetic-driven impeller and may hold up longer but the
impeller does run on a steel shaft. Might work best to lube the shaft
with Vaseline or whatever to keep the acid to a minimum.

Will, the Tink
N45°29'05, W122°19.20

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron & Mary Ohler <r-m-ohler@triton.net>
Reply-To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 18:56:14 -0400

Hard water is certainly an issue. I usually recommended acid cleaning
the heat exchanger once a year on the Paloma units. Removing the tubes
that connected the heat exchanger to the burner control would allow
vinyl tubing to be placed on the exchanger's tube ends. Plastic hose to
garden hose adapters allowed using a cheap drill operated pump to be
used to pump acid through the heat exchanger from a 5 gallon bucket with
about 1 gallon of acid in it. If the heater was mounted low enough on
the wall or the heat exchanger was removed - 2 buckets could be used to
siphon the acid back and forth through the heat exchanger. The drill
pump method was worth the extra cost as it was much faster and if care
was used to not run the drill motor too fast - I feel it is less likely
to spill. With clear vinyl tubing it was easy to see when the lime was
all removed as the down stream tube would no longer show foam bubbles in
it.
I got to where I used a battery operated drill motor and could clean a
Paloma out in less than 1/2 hour. Eventually the drill pumps give out as
most just have a carbon steel shaft which rusts and pits at the seal or
the impellor goes bad - some elastomers or even plastic housings are not
compatible with muriatic acid.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: William Dysinger
To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?

What about the hard water coating the inside of all the tankless heat
exchanger? Seems to me that you would just be shifting the same problem
to the new heating source. Much better to tackle the treatment of the
hard water problem first.

Will, the Tink
N45°29'05, W122°19.20

-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Andrews <nickjandrews@gmail.com>
Reply-To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:59:03 -0600

Well, around here the water is so hard that they will be entirely
encased in
solid calcium half the time. I am looking to go with solar preheat or
tankless to cut down on power usage.

On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 10:10 AM, BC <calderhead@comcast.net> wrote:

> I too have an SCR 2 from Titan. In fact I have two of them. I think
your
> comments on shower use depend alot on the faucet handle. I'm not
doubting
> your experience, it's just that I wish I had a single faucet handle
for hot
> and a single one for cold. I've used Bosch tankless as well and noted
> similar experience getting the flow and temp I want. It's not like a
tanked
> heater.
>
> In any case, why stop using a water heater just because the elements
went
> out? I'm curious as eventually I'll have to replace my elements too.
> They're not that hard to get to.
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com <wastewatts%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
> wastewatts@yahoogroups.com <wastewatts%40yahoogroups.com>]On
> Behalf Of Ron & Mary Ohler
> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 11:39 PM
> To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com <wastewatts%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?
>
> Hi,
> Oh, we used a 11.8 KW Niagara Titan SCR 2 for about 3 - 3 1/2 years to
> supply all of the hot water needs for our 1880's 2 story 1400 sq/ft
home.
> There are 3 of us here. 2 mid/late 40's adults and a 10 year old
child. We
> have an automatic clothes washer, 2 baths (1 up and 1 downstairs), 2
> kitchens( I made it a duplex) but no dishwasher. We would still be
using
> the
> Titan had it not burned out both heating elements. It was just large
enough
> to take a shower with using a 2.5 gpm maximum shower head. Note, we
are
> only
> supplied with about 30 -32 psi water pressure so the flow rate is
certainly
> a bit less than rated. In use - for a shower - the water had to be
turned
> on
> full hot to warm up the piping and then some cold water was blended in
to
> make comfortable.
> Ron
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Plotsker
> To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com <wastewatts%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 8:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Tankless water heater ?
>
> what methods of heating are used on these tankless water heaters that
make
> sense economically?
> i have hho and electric. no natural gas. yet...
> also do you get one per bathroom or can you share one between 2
adjacent
> bathrooms or do you have a whole house unit?
> thanks
> michael
>
> On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 6:08 PM, Steve Spence
>
> <sspence@green-trust.org <sspence%40green-trust.org>>wrote:
>
> > I feel tankless makes sense. I have the Rinnai.
> >
> > Steve Spence
> > http://www.green-trust.org
> >
> > Sign up for our newsletter at
> > http://www.green-trust.org/newsletter/
> >
> >
> > heart4u311@aol.com <heart4u311%40aol.com> <heart4u311%40aol.com>
wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi
> > > Where I live (2 family home) there are 2 apt, each with separate
30
> > gallon
> > > gas water heater per each apt,
> > > to use for hot water / hot water panels for heat.
> > >
> > > Still bills are huge, and going to grow more and more.
> > > Is it worth it to change those hot water tanks that have to be
kept
> not
> > all
> > > year around
> > > for tankless water heater ?
> > > anyone knows?
> > > And if switching to tankless make sense, which brand to buy?
> > > thanks
snip

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (31)

Hmm, I had not thought of that. Guess if I ever try to run it, I'll need a
rotary converter, because El Pisso Electric will not run 3-phase to my house
for me under any circumstances, if I had to put money on it.

On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Ron & Mary Ohler <r-m-ohler@triton.net>wrote:

> Hi Nick,
> I have a pair of Thermal Arc 250 GTSW inverter welders that are 380-415v. I
> bought them new - old stock. I didn't have a transformer for this voltage so
> bought a used VFD on ebay large enough to supply the power needs. I set the
> control so that it would supply 400 volts at 60hz (it's capable of 400hz).
> Turned on the welder and struck an arc. I only got to run a 3/4" bead before
> the welder quit. I ended up finding out the hard way that an inverter
> running an inverter is the wrong thing to do and burned up an IGBT in that
> welder. I ended up taking a pair of 460/480v to 208v transformers to make
> 418v. I connected the second welder to this supply. I did so by opening up
> the units and separating the secondary leads on one of them and placing the
> secondary coils in series with the matching secondary coils of the other.
> Not the most economical means of producing the required voltage but it
> works. Note that most electronic equipment is designed to allow an input
> voltage that varies from rated voltage by up to 10%. Inverters are often not
> the case. In the case of my welders the internal circuitry shuts it down if
> the voltage is not within acceptable parameters.
> Ron
>

--
Nick A

"You know what I wish? I wish that all the scum of the world had but a
single throat, and I had my hands about it..." Rorschach, 1975

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review
of Pennsylvania, 1759

"Be polite. Be professional. But be prepared to kill everyone you meet."
Anonymous

"I believe that if you can't find something nice to say about somebody, then
you must be talking about Hillary Clinton." Jeff Foxworthy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (35)

Hi Nick,
Rotary converters "work". Sadly they have limitations and cost a bit to run but the monthly bill for 3 phase service adds up over time. Even having a motor/generator makes sense under certain situations. I think my minimum bill for 3 phase service is about $18. per month in addition to my single phase and natural gas which are on a combined bill which is separately billed from the 3 phase service.
A few years ago I was looking at moving the shop to a different property. There were primary power lines about 1.3 miles from where I wanted the 3 phase brought. The power company estimated cost to bring service to the property line to be $12,000. This did not include any on-site lines or poles - nor any electrical wiring inside of the building.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Nick Andrews
To: wastewatts@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [wastewatts] Re: Power-Save products

Hmm, I had not thought of that. Guess if I ever try to run it, I'll need a
rotary converter, because El Pisso Electric will not run 3-phase to my house
for me under any circumstances, if I had to put money on it.

On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Ron & Mary Ohler <r-m-ohler@triton.net>wrote:

> Hi Nick,
> I have a pair of Thermal Arc 250 GTSW inverter welders that are 380-415v. I
> bought them new - old stock. I didn't have a transformer for this voltage so
> bought a used VFD on ebay large enough to supply the power needs. I set the
> control so that it would supply 400 volts at 60hz (it's capable of 400hz).
> Turned on the welder and struck an arc. I only got to run a 3/4" bead before
> the welder quit. I ended up finding out the hard way that an inverter
> running an inverter is the wrong thing to do and burned up an IGBT in that
> welder. I ended up taking a pair of 460/480v to 208v transformers to make
> 418v. I connected the second welder to this supply. I did so by opening up
> the units and separating the secondary leads on one of them and placing the
> secondary coils in series with the matching secondary coils of the other.
> Not the most economical means of producing the required voltage but it
> works. Note that most electronic equipment is designed to allow an input
> voltage that varies from rated voltage by up to 10%. Inverters are often not
> the case. In the case of my welders the internal circuitry shuts it down if
> the voltage is not within acceptable parameters.
> Ron
>

--
Nick A

"You know what I wish? I wish that all the scum of the world had but a
single throat, and I had my hands about it..." Rorschach, 1975

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review
of Pennsylvania, 1759

"Be polite. Be professional. But be prepared to kill everyone you meet."
Anonymous

"I believe that if you can't find something nice to say about somebody, then
you must be talking about Hillary Clinton." Jeff Foxworthy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (35)

On Tue, 1 Jul 2008, berniek@technicaldevelop.com wrote:

> Retrospectively the biggest blunder was made by Carter when he
> mandated abstinence from fission fuel reprocessing because of Plutonium
> production. The French reprocess to advantage, guard Plutonium to the
> highest degree, and re-use it in power reactors. Volume of waste is
> reduced by a factor of between 10 and 50. Guess what: No more Yucca
> mountain problems, and more fuel in addition. Moreover, consider the
> slow death of tens or hundreds of thousands which could be caused by
> "dirty bombs" using any nuclear waste spread by chemical explosives,
> easily built by terrorists. Carter was concerned about the relative
> ease with which a Plutonium bomb could be built. Frankly, I'd rather
> die by being vaporized than by slow death from widespread radiation
> poisoning.

I don't disagree that we should be reprocessing spent nuclear fuel into
new fuel, but the reason it was canceled here wasn't environmental, it was
largely economic: Processing ore was far cheaper. Uranium ore was about
$8/lb in the late 70s, it was $12/lb just a couple years ago. Meanwhile
inflation has risen about 200% so Uranium ore was actually *cheaper* in
adjusted dollars than in the 70s so reprocessing made even less sense
economically. [0] In the last few years, though, it has risen steadily and
the most recent reference I find is that it's was $90/lb a year ago[2].
With that in mind I'd like to see the government propose new breeder
reactors, though with so little time left in the current administration I
wouldn't expect anything so drastic.

FYI the Presidential Directive was issued by Gerald Ford and later
confirmed by Jimmy Carter so it was a bipartisan act. [1]

There have been four Presidents since Carter, none of whom have done
anything substantial to reverse the decision not to reprocess used nuclear
fuel. Technically Reagan lifted the ban but didn't return any of the
substantial subsidies required so that was a no-op. Of course it wasn't
cost-effective until a couple of years ago. Maybe 44 will be better?

-Jason

[0] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/reaction/readings/keeny.html
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reprocessing
[2] http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/03/28/business/uranium.php

-----
--- There are no absolute statements. I'm very probably wrong. ---
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits."
- Albert Einstein

Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (2)

Another useful link is http://www.esrla.com/brazil/frame.htm
regards, Jimmie

--- In wastewatts@yahoogroups.com, "JIMMIE MARTIN" <jimmi9z@...> wrote:
>
> Hello group. I've been reading about useing Black Soldier Fly for oil production. This
seems
> much more doable than growing plants and a way around the Yellow Grease market that
has
> taken over our waste cooking oil supply. I'm trying to encourage some to start in some
waste
> kitchen scraps and a few showed up. It sounds like the ramp elevation is the trick, steep
> enough to let the BSF larve climb out but the housefly larve can't and get eaten. What
kind of
> press etc.They could be fed scraps from supermarkets. The markets are happy to have
you
> take the stuff away. People with horses and other livestock are happy for you to take
their
> animals waste away as well.
> This link is informative... http://solarwayfarm.com/photo4
> Also other info available in searches
> smell ya later, Jimmie in Reno
>

Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (4)

The larvae are 35% oil. Squeeze 'em in a soy bean press. I've been wanting to develop this
idea first and post results to the group but can't seem to get the time. I'll get to it
eventually but in the mean time maybe some others will get inspired to experiment.
best wishes, Jimmie

-- In wastewatts@yahoogroups.com, Steve Spence <sspence@...> wrote:
>
> The larvae are better at converting food scraps to compost than red
> worms. Didn't know about an oil angle. Where does the oil come from?
>
> Steve Spence
> http://www.green-trust.org
>
> Sign up for our newsletter at
> http://www.green-trust.org/newsletter/
>
> JIMMIE MARTIN wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello group. I've been reading about useing Black Soldier Fly for oil
> > production. This seems
> > much more doable than growing plants and a way around the Yellow Grease
> > market that has
> > taken over our waste cooking oil supply. I'm trying to encourage some to
> > start in some waste
> > kitchen scraps and a few showed up. It sounds like the ramp elevation is
> > the trick, steep
> > enough to let the BSF larve climb out but the housefly larve can't and
> > get eaten. What kind of
> > press etc.They could be fed scraps from supermarkets. The markets are
> > happy to have you
> > take the stuff away. People with horses and other livestock are happy
> > for you to take their
> > animals waste away as well.
> > This link is informative... http://solarwayfarm.com/photo4
> > <http://solarwayfarm.com/photo4>
> > Also other info available in searches
> > smell ya later, Jimmie in Reno
> >
> >
>

Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (4)

New Members

New Files

Special K Group

Yahoo! Groups

Find helpful tips

Need to Reply?